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Carroll wants to banish you

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  • I always suspected he was an old prick but now I have it confirmed. Fortunately like the rest of the old aeon his mentality will eventually be annihilated and abolished. Living as an immigrant in UK I hear thus sort of bullshit daily- people telling me that I have no right to have dreams and that they would like to take away my freedom to choose where I live. Obviously when I confront them about this they always say "no we didn't mean you really.you're cool and you work etc " Fuck you all! Is my response to this. And fuck Peter Carrol. Actually- no I would never fuck him... Sounds like an open magical war to me now Thanks Gods I don't treat anything seriously...

  • Hey dont kill the messenger.

  • My husband is Scottish, my brother in law Anton is English. I have international friends. In my hippy open minded circle of friends we just laugh when we hear this type of bullshit... The Victorious Child breaks all kinds of rules... Even the ones created by him/herself

  • Unfortunately messenger has to be killed

  • Yeah, Carroll's politics tend towards the right wing reactionary. With the exception of his idea of a 'stachocracy' (representatives selected by random lot, like a jury), which so far seems like his only half decent political idea. Given that the IOT was always the 'organised' and 'hierarchical' wing of chaos magic, its easy to see why its the side of chaos magic that attracted ex-National Front boot boys and other fascists.

  • Yeah, Pete Carroll, the man that appointed an ex-National Front boot boy as his second in command of the IOT. Long time proponant of Conservative and UKIP politics. The only inspired non-reactionary political idea he ever came up with is 'stochacracy', the idea of selecting representatives by random like in a Jury, and I'm not even sure he came up with that. But he is where I heard about it from. Still a lot of 1980s chaos magic is riddled with Yuppie ideology, so this isn't surprising. I think when it comes down to it, one of the defining things about chaos magic was not its embracing science and psychology as magical models, Crowley and other turn of the century magicians beat chaos to that punch. No, chaos magic was the first to abandon rationalism in favour of embracing business-speak management bullshit as a magical language...

  • ^ My second comment above was copy pasted from my reply to this thread on CMG, but I decided I didn't want it to 'get lost' in the stream there, and so saved it here for posterity. It repeats some of the things I said in my first post. But oh well... o.O

  • Ha, ha ha!!! What a silly, bitter man! Maybe people still hitchhike in rural Scotland because foreigners are not perceived as a threat here as much as down in England heh?

    I definitely feel more welcome here than down south. My best pagan/magick friends in here come from Germany, France, Wales (born in Iran) England and Scotland. Lady running local magick shop comes from Australia. Bristol in England might be much more cosmopolitan city than Inverness but most magicians at the local moot in Bristol were English. I prefer mixed origins and attitudes.

    Sad thing about guys like Carroll is that they cry over lost past. We're here to stay and we do not give a fuck if some old farts do not like it. It will be better for him to simply accept reality. Ah, and he admits he votes out of fear! Another sign of weak mind in my opinion. He clearly fights another lost battle.

    Pete! These days if you're say you're English you will be arrested and thrown in jail!

    Awesome comedy sketch from Steward Lee (30 mins well spent) sums it all up:

  • edited April 2015

    If he actually thinks immigration is the biggest problem facing us he really needs to remove his head from his arse. As I said on CMG: Society loves a scapegoat because broken people love to hate. A fully awake and aware person would realise their hatred of another is merely a reflection of a hatred they carry within for some part of themselves. Then there is the role language plays, any generalisation e.g. Jew, Muslim, white, immigrant etc. removes the ability to deal with a specific reality and dehumanises the target. If you’re failing to deal with specifics you’re deluded. I’ve never met all the immigrants and therefore cannot comment on all of them, only the specific people I have met who identify as immigrants, each of them is a different specific being, capable of change, viewed by a particular instrument at a particular point in space time. To generalise from this is absurd, but what is more absurd is these generalisations usually come from people who have made little to no effort to know their intended victim. They project a mental caricature and claim this is reality.

    White privilege is very much alive and well in even the most multi-cultural places in this country. There is very strong nationalism in Scotland, but funnily enough I have yet to encounter the level of racism here that I have in England (even as a foreigner and 'hated' English person). I think level of population has a lot to do with it. There are less people in all of Scotland than there are in London, with more space and connection to each other I think there is less hate. It’s like with Lemmings, when the population gets too big they start becoming very aggressive to the point that they will kill each other for the slightest thing. Put too many domesticated primates in one place and they start hating each other for any reason they can pull out of their arses.

    I doubt people have stopped hitchhiking because of immigrants. They’ve probably stopped hitchhiking because our society has become more violent and aggressive, but again, blaming that on immigrants seems fallacious. Is it not more likely to be because of increased unemployment and poverty, decreased social mobility, lack of affordable shelter and food? You know, the shit people need to survive happily that they are having to increasingly compete harder and harder for while a wealthy few continue to take and take and take. Immigrants aren’t buying up all the housing, selling off public assets or gutting community projects. Immigrants aren’t forcing the unemployed to work for nothing in Poundland for their mates. Immigrants didn’t completely fuck the economy and then demand the theft of trillions in public funds that has left this country in massive debt. Immigrants aren’t destroying the planet for the sake of short term profit. Immigrants don’t demand that our social worth be mainly defined by how much we earn rather than what we do for each other, immigrants haven’t pushed forward the cut-throat, dog-eat-dog, use people and throw them away culture of the city that is spreading like a plague through society destroying the community and connection that prevents hostility and fosters respect.

    But no, it must be the fault of poor powerless minority groups, it couldn’t possibly have anything to do with those who actually have power and influence. That would require basing ones opinions on social trends and logic rather than blind prejudice.

  • Anton Channing wrote: »
    No, chaos magic was the first to abandon rationalism in favour of embracing business-speak management bullshit as a magical language...

    QFT

  • There's one thing that I agree with Pete. When I was in Wembley, I could count the English on fingers on a busy shopping street. His argument about accommodating more people by this island is ridiculous, considering that most immigrants flock in large cities. London is growing by building further storeys in the ground, and soon there'll be large buildings like in Sci-Fi movies. Cities will swell, and the British Island will feel no harm.

  • Not to mention pretty much as many Brits go and live abroad and foreigners come here. This is a natural consequence of the world getting more connected, nothing more. The UK will gain nothing from isolating itself from the global network.

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  • I personally couldn't give a flying toss about Carroll's politics. Why should I? He's not my friend and he isn't running for office. More importantly, he isn't my idol either.

    It's a mistake to expect anyone whose work in a specific field you admire to somehow be "sound" in all other aspects of their thinking. When I want to buy a book on how to learn a certain skill, I do not first vet the author for their political beliefs any more than I would vet those of a plumber or a mechanic or whatever.

  • I care about his politics. The more I understand his politics, the more I see his magical books and articles tainted with such thinking. The more I realise that Chaos Magic became a creative and positive force in magic in spite of Carroll and not because of him.

  • I've always found his books to be amoral in tone, which is fine by me - I don't seek moral guidance from an instruction manual. I never expected him to be the kind of person I might personally take a liking to in real life, mostly because of his association with the Sorcerer's Apprentice (who for many of us living far away from major English cities, back in the day, were the only source of serious occult literature) and those guys have always struck me as being a bunch of arrogant, antagonistic, self-serving bastards.

  • I do agree, though, browsing through his various pro-Unionist and anti-EU rants on his blog, that Carroll does indeed appear to be a cock.

  • I think I was giving Carroll too much 'benefit of the doubt' back in the 'chaos magic as a Yuppie Phenomena' thread: http://forum.kiamagic.com/discussion/29576/chaos-magic-as-a-yuppie-phenomena

  • Amorality comes in different flavours. Carroll's is certainly quite psychopathic. Not saying he is a clinical psychopath. I'm neither qualified to make such a diagnosis, nor know him well enough to say. But I do find his kind of amorality lacking in empathy and compassion, and encouraging a sociopathic subculture. Not very inspiring really. Looking back, the best I can say about his work is that his dumbed down alchemy and qaballah (ie his Eight Colours and Alphabet of Desire in Liber Kaos and Liber Null), were good learning tools for finally understanding the real thing.

  • His psychopathic thinking is particularly evident in the Yellow and Orange magic sections of the 'Eight Colours' if I remember correctly.

  • Each one of his books offers a mixed bag of hits and misses (colour magic being a miss in my view) - with the misses outweighing the hits by a substantial margin every time.

  • Anton Channing wrote: »
    I think I was giving Carroll too much 'benefit of the doubt' back in the 'chaos magic as a Yuppie Phenomena' thread: http://forum.kiamagic.com/discussion/29576/chaos-magic-as-a-yuppie-phenomena

    Well, the Yuppie Phenomena is a fundamentally sociopathic one.

  • edited June 2015

    Spiral wrote: »
    White privilege is very much alive and well in even the most multi-cultural places in this country. There is very strong nationalism in Scotland, but funnily enough I have yet to encounter the level of racism here that I have in England (even as a foreigner and 'hated' English person). I think level of population has a lot to do with it.

    Throughout Europe, the majority of inhabitants of metropolitan areas tend to be socially liberal, whereas market townies tend to be socially conservative. The difference between countries such as Wales or Scotland and countries such as England is that in Wales and Scotland socially liberal urbanites outnumber socially conservative market townies, whereas in England the reverse is true. Whether liberal or conservative, the larger group within any given country or society dictates political discourse and defines the mainstream.

    Nationalism is a term that has little or no meaning without a specific context relating to the Who and the Where and the How. In a Scottish context, it is hardly surprising that members of a largely socially liberal society want out of a union with a much larger, sociopathic neighbour.

  • edited June 2015

    Anton Channing wrote: »
    Looking back, the best I can say about his work is that his dumbed down alchemy and qaballah (ie his Eight Colours and Alphabet of Desire in Liber Kaos and Liber Null), were good learning tools for finally understanding the real thing.

    I started out with basic Sympathetic Magic, gleaned from The Golden Bough (quite some time before I got round to reading anything from Crowley, Carroll or any other modern magicians) and have remained Lo-Tech and Solo ever since. Complex correlations beyond the most basic have never interested me when it comes down to practice.

    And so, when it comes right down to it, were I to put down on paper all I'd found of personal, practical value in Carroll's works, it would barely be enough to fill a leaflet: Sleight of Mind, Gnosis, Sigils - all Spare's innovations, of course. Motionlessness I'd already got from Crowley.

    Paradigm shifting I only find interesting as an amateur writer of fiction. I find ethnically non-specific archetypal men and beasts far more accessible for invocation than any deity, and that's an approach I didn't need to read about first in a book.

    Not into shouting words of Enochian gibberish either: I find it silly and conspicuous. I much prefer the old Polish practice of whispering - SO much more sinister and otherworldly.

  • S1m0n- good to see a new face in here

    I think the truth lays in the middle.

    One way to approach writings of all sorts is the Apophenia attitude- in this case everything you read contains higher wisdom. "I vow to perceive every phenomenon as a direct contact between the divine and my soul". Wisdom comes to me through the radio, random strangers I meet on the street etc. In this case it doesn't matter who these people are and what they do. All it matters to me is the teaching they bring me. It's a highly ecstatic attitude. The only problem with this attitude is an ignorance of the wider context, lack of awareness of what you associate with. A while back I had a good discussion on facebook Chaos Magick Group. It referred to the teachings of Madam Blavatski and Rudolf Steiner. I always had mixed feelings about their writings. Even though they were inspiring I felt something was fishy in there...Lately i heard people say that Steiner was a fascist and "ascended masters" were also a fascist idea. One guy told me that the fascist context becomes apparent when you read the original Steiner in German. German language allows certain word-games that are not translatable into other languages apparently...

    I used to hang out in the New Age circles and ascended masters are a very popular idea in there. I couldn't help noticing that all these new agers were white and mostly wealthy people with a closed mindset... "think positive and your dreams will come true"- type of attitude.. I certainly felt uncomfortable around them... If it is true that Steiner was a fascist I don't trust the intentions hidden behind his teachings. Skilful manipulators know how to play with words...They make it all sound spiritual and appealing...

    I don't deny the value of Carroll's work but he is a skillful manipulator. The manner in which he replied my email was highly diplomatic. This gives me a further proof of his cunning. If you find him inspiring- good for you but you might feel daft if one day turns out to be pedophile or something... (Lol- maybe stretch of imagination in there..)

    I think the best way to approach things is the "maybe logic". Rather than saying "this author is a genius" i would say "genius communicates with me through this writing". This way i can not go wrong.

  • My response relates to your first comment about politics

  • And i know you never said he was a genius. I just used that as an example

  • My ex-wife was into Steiner. Never had any time for Anthroposophy - all that nonsense about humans being superior to all over life forms. A fundamentally flawed philosophy.

  • Indeed. But I remember being brought up Christian to already believe that, so when stepping outside the church for the first time, it is natural to explore things that have some overlap in thinking. I read one book by Steiner as a teenager, but quickly moved on to other things. Sadly some people get stuck there. Its like they don't have the patience to explore all the options, and dedicate themselves to the first thing they find, buying in to all its dogmas.

  • Using magick and Violence to safe guard a lampost while 'The Temple' or hired thugs attack the initiate is rather similar to an SS Ideology or boot camp. Maybe Carroll wanted to be like Myatt. Who knows and who cares ?

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